pH woes

Laura and Jim will be hosting the May meeting this Saturday the 12th and it will be the usual of food, drinks, raffle and fun.
 
Doors will be open at 6:00 pm for social talk and the meeting will start at 7:00.  Parking gets a little tight and the city says you can't park on 4th but there is a parking lot a block away.   Meeting is usually held in the backyard so feel free to bring your favorite lawn chair, weather permitting of course.

If you need address/directions, contact a club member.

Best if you park at Mini Mall (where the spaghetti establishment use to be)
 
You will get to see his new frag tank set up in the making.
 
Hope to see you there!

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[VickiG]

Ok, we are having a heck of a time with our pH dropping.   What can we do to keep pH up?  It drops to 8.1 or even less,  even though we've done water changes and we have high calcium and high alk (can these be too high? - our alk is always quite high).  Last night our longnose butterfly looked sick (he had been doing great in the tank for quite some time) and this a.m. he was a goner.  Was our favorite fish to watch and had been eating well and active until last evening.  We tested water last night when he looked ill and everything was pretty good - only thing we can see is that pH problem.  Any ideas?   We are not going to add any fish to the tank until we can figure out this problem (sorry, won't be a lot of fish to look at when you come to the meeting).

[VickiG]

P.S.  We did lose two clownfish this week-end as well, but we had just purchased them from "a local fish store" and one died the next day, the other two days later - they never did eat and never did pay any attention to the anemone, which seems very healthy.  They seemed weak from the start and struggled with the current in the tank - Darrel thinks maybe our current is "too strong" for clownfish - is that even a possibility, or did we just get already sick fish?  We would like to get a pair of clowns, but have now lost 3 of them - none of them ever ate and all died within 24-48 hours of purchase, so we won't be buying any more locally, nor until we resolve the pH issue.  Again, your advice/thoughts ... all welcome!  Thanks.

[Jeff]

how wide your pH swings?

do you use straight RO water for your salt mix?

what could possibly in the water that has an acid pH?

[VickiG]

how wide your pH swings?

do you use straight RO water for your salt mix?

what could possibly in the water that has an acid pH?

Jeff, it has swings of 8.09 - 8.33, but has been hovering around 8.12 during the day.  We do use RO water and mix the salt at least a day or more before adding to tank.  We did a water change today, siphoned detrititis (not much as we had just done that a few days ago too) and the pH didn't change - still 8.12.  I tested pH with a test kit to see if maybe our controller probe needs to be recalibrated - pretty close to the same reading.   We just have live rock, (no sand - bare bottom), some softies, some LPS and some SPS (I know, I know... 'coral garden') and fish - nothing that we can think of that is causing the pH to drop.   Darrel has buffered and added Ca, but yesterday the Ca was almost 500 and alk was high as well so we don't know what is causing this.  With the butterfly dying, we thought something awful must be going on, but all tests were okay.   We are going to test again tonight.

[The Apprentice]

Vicki I have these swings every day as well been having them for the past almost 3 years this is not a problem more of a sign that during the day the Algae in your tank give off Increased Oxygen during the time the lights are off this process stops so your ph drops. Most reef keeper try to mitigate this by running a refugium with the lights on during the night as this Algae will give Oxygen to keep PH more stable. You cant stop it entirely but you can mitigate it. A good test on this theory is to take your PH probe and place it in a glass of RODI water then take a straw and blow bubbles into it Your Co will drop the PH in the water and you can see it instantly drop this is because The RODI water has no buffer in it and our salt water does but its the same principle that is happening in our tank every night.
As for you clown fish misfortune If you can keep a anemone alive the flow is not to great for clown fish...I don't have anything more to help you there sorry. Darrel has buffered and added Ca, but yesterday the Ca was almost 500 and alk was high as well so we don't know what is causing this. Try not to add anything for a week If possible try to do a 10% water change and see how your chemistry looks what kind of salt are you using? If its IO remember they Have a higher strength on the buffer side with a little lower calcium level...
Hope this helps you out...Jeff

how wide your pH swings?

do you use straight RO water for your salt mix?

what could possibly in the water that has an acid pH?

Jeff, it has swings of 8.09 - 8.33, but has been hovering around 8.12 during the day.  We do use RO water and mix the salt at least a day or more before adding to tank.  We did a water change today, siphoned detrititis (not much as we had just done that a few days ago too) and the pH didn't change - still 8.12.  I tested pH with a test kit to see if maybe our controller probe needs to be recalibrated - pretty close to the same reading.   We just have live rock, (no sand - bare bottom), some softies, some LPS and some SPS (I know, I know... 'coral garden') and fish - nothing that we can think of that is causing the pH to drop.   Darrel has buffered and added Ca, but yesterday the Ca was almost 500 and alk was high as well so we don't know what is causing this.  With the butterfly dying, we thought something awful must be going on, but all tests were okay.   We are going to test again tonight.

[VickiG]

Vicki I have these swings every day as well been having them for the past almost 3 years this is not a problem more of a sign that during the day the Algae in your tank give off Increased Oxygen during the time the lights are off this process stops so your ph drops. Most reef keeper try to mitigate this by running a refugium with the lights on during the night as this Algae will give Oxygen to keep PH more stable. You cant stop it entirely but you can mitigate it. A good test on this theory is to take your PH probe and place it in a glass of RODI water then take a straw and blow bubbles into it Your Co will drop the PH in the water and you can see it instantly drop this is because The RODI water has no buffer in it and our salt water does but its the same principle that is happening in our tank every night.
As for you clown fish misfortune If you can keep a anemone alive the flow is not to great for clown fish...I don't have anything more to help you there sorry. Darrel has buffered and added Ca, but yesterday the Ca was almost 500 and alk was high as well so we don't know what is causing this. Try not to add anything for a week If possible try to do a 10% water change and see how your chemistry looks what kind of salt are you using? If its IO remember they Have a higher strength on the buffer side with a little lower calcium level...
Hope this helps you out...Jeff

We know you are right about the pH dropping at night.  Yes, we do run a refugium (but a pretty small one) with lights on at night and some chaeto algae (we were wondering if that needs to be replaced or maybe we need more macro algae).  We do use IO salt.  I think Darrel is an additive-aholoic - he is always putting something in there!  With Ca at 500 and high alk, I asked him not to add anything right now too!   But he is quite concerned about that pH.  Maybe we don't need to worry so much about it??   We did a water change today and will re-test water tonight or tomorrow.  Thanks for your advice!  We appreciate it.

[Jeff]

just out of sheer curiosity, what is the pH of your freshly mixed saltwater?

also, some freshwater people add tap water to the RO water to bring the pH up.  I don't know what the reef community's thoughts on that are though.  I am a bad person (from what I've been told by the guys at aquatropics) and I just use straight tap water for my salt mix.  My alkalinity and calcium stay high and the silicates and phosphates in my tap water are low so it works out ok.

[angelscrx]

just out of sheer curiosity, what is the pH of your freshly mixed saltwater?

also, some freshwater people add tap water to the RO water to bring the pH up.  I don't know what the reef community's thoughts on that are though.  I am a bad person (from what I've been told by the guys at aquatropics) and I just use straight tap water for my salt mix.  My alkalinity and calcium stay high and the silicates and phosphates in my tap water are low so it works out ok.

Tap water ooooh bad reefer!!!  Any phosphates are bad phosphates.

[The Apprentice]

Vicki I don't know how much Coral and the amount of Inverts you have in your Tank But I think with the elevated levels of Calcium and Alkalinity you can just hold off on the additives and let this come down naturally.
I have a 75 gallon tank that I don't dose or add anything to I have learned at around 7 days the tank's Calcium level starts to drop I do a 6 gallon water change and I have rebalanced all My Calcium and Alkalinity.
I don't think you need to replace your algae  it will catch up with your phosphate and Nitrate bio-load. You could add more If the fuge can support it. Can you add another Fuge? I have 4 on one of my tanks.

Vicki I have these swings every day as well been having them for the past almost 3 years this is not a problem more of a sign that during the day the Algae in your tank give off Increased Oxygen during the time the lights are off this process stops so your ph drops. Most reef keeper try to mitigate this by running a refugium with the lights on during the night as this Algae will give Oxygen to keep PH more stable. You cant stop it entirely but you can mitigate it. A good test on this theory is to take your PH probe and place it in a glass of RODI water then take a straw and blow bubbles into it Your Co will drop the PH in the water and you can see it instantly drop this is because The RODI water has no buffer in it and our salt water does but its the same principle that is happening in our tank every night.
As for you clown fish misfortune If you can keep a anemone alive the flow is not to great for clown fish...I don't have anything more to help you there sorry. Darrel has buffered and added Ca, but yesterday the Ca was almost 500 and alk was high as well so we don't know what is causing this. Try not to add anything for a week If possible try to do a 10% water change and see how your chemistry looks what kind of salt are you using? If its IO remember they Have a higher strength on the buffer side with a little lower calcium level...
Hope this helps you out...Jeff

We know you are right about the pH dropping at night.  Yes, we do run a refugium (but a pretty small one) with lights on at night and some chaeto algae (we were wondering if that needs to be replaced or maybe we need more macro algae).  We do use IO salt.  I think Darrel is an additive-aholoic - he is always putting something in there!  With Ca at 500 and high alk, I asked him not to add anything right now too!   But he is quite concerned about that pH.  Maybe we don't need to worry so much about it??   We did a water change today and will re-test water tonight or tomorrow.  Thanks for your advice!  We appreciate it.

[The Apprentice]

I tend to disagree here Jeff the water we have in Hermiston & Umatilla is way to hi In Phosphate for Stoney corals You can get away with it with soft corals but ?
What kind of phosphate testing kit do you use?
Rodi ph un mixed= ph = 5.92
adding salt brings Ph up to 8.37  to 8.46 With my hach ph lab grade meters.

just out of sheer curiosity, what is the pH of your freshly mixed saltwater?

also, some freshwater people add tap water to the RO water to bring the pH up.  I don't know what the reef community's thoughts on that are though.  I am a bad person (from what I've been told by the guys at aquatropics) and I just use straight tap water for my salt mix.  My alkalinity and calcium stay high and the silicates and phosphates in my tap water are low so it works out ok.

[/b]

[Jeff]

Interesting.  I will get my water re-tested to check the phosphates.  I had it done at Amazon Bay a couple months ago and the phosphates were really low.  I will get it done again though.

[Rico]

Jeff,

Don't trust the Amazon tests, most of the time their reagents are old and the test kits they use do not even compare to the quality and accuracy of the tests that Jeff Lee has.


Vicky,
I think you are overly concerned about a small ph swing.  What you are observing is very typical.  Something else you may notice is that this Saturday with all the people in your house, the ph on your tank will drop.  This is because the people will add CO2 to the air and this will can cause a ph drop.

It is really hard to say why the butterfly fish died, however they are known to be finicky eaters.  Most people buy them to eat the aptaisa in their tanks, then when the aptaisa is gone, the fish starve and die.  Once in a while someone gets lucky and has a fish that will eat prepared foods, but this is not the norm.

Rick