feed cycle questions

Beau is hosting the January Meeting this coming Saturday the 14th at 6PM.  It will be BYOB as well as a snack to share and raffle items are always welcome.  It has been requested that there be “NO SHOES” on the carpet due to it being a whitish color.

He doesn’t have a tank to view but we will have plenty to discuss in hopes that it will get the NEW YEAR off to a good start.  The annual membership fees are due, so now would be a good time to get them in to our Treasurer Stacey Hahn.   Fees are $20 per individual or $25 per family

Attendance was low at the election meeting in November and no votes were taken at December’s meeting so we have decided to take votes for anyone that didn’t get the opportunity in November and will be attending this meeting.  
We will add the votes to November’s ballots and the announcement will be made during the meeting so we can go forward.
NOMINATIONS:
President:  Jim & Nacho
V. President: Ed, Bo & Daniel Leigey
Treasurer: Stacey
Secretary: Carmen & Angie

Let’s hope the New Year brings new members, returning members and new ideas.  The club is always willing to take suggestions to get the most out of the hobby we all enjoy.

Please PM Nate C. by clicking here for directions if you are not a club member.  

Club members can click here to go to the club member only forum to get directions.

Hope to see you all there!

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[VickiG]

Hi everyone.  We are programming the new Aquacontroller and it defaults to a 5 minute feed cycle when pumps are shut off for feeding.   I can change this time, but have not yet done so.  First, I have a couple questions that I thought I'd run by you folks with actual fish-keeping experience.   1) is 5 minutes a long enough feed cycle?  2) how many times a day do you feed? 3)  when pumps are shut off for feed cycle, this will mean nothing is going from chiller back to the display tank, so does anyone have problems with tank water heating up during the feed cycle time since the MH lights will be on?  (Our chiller plan is to take/return water from sump, so Darrel is wondering if that will be a problem with display tank heating up in the 5 minutes that the feed cycle is running and the pumps to/from display tank are shut down).   All input is welcome as we are getting closer - but not there yet!  Thanks!

[Ed]

My concern would be the chiller.     The amperage draw of your return pump and chiller is  my question.   When you start them back up Your chiller will pull how many amps, and your return pump will pull how many amps?   If it were me I would want to run a seperate circuit for your chiller.   That way if your chiller trips a breaker your tank will be fine.  If you could time them both to go off at the same time so you could feed I think it would be awesome.    I hope this makes sense to you.   I want to always look towards Les for Chiller questions.  
I hope I am helping,
Ed

[Les]

First off, the chiller running for 5 min won't hurt a thing.
2, The tank will NOT overheat in 5 or even 10 min with everything off.
3, Ed is right, the chiller should be on a seperate circuit.
4, Am I the only one that makes the fish swim for their food? I do not shut anything down when I feed and nobody starves. I think for seahorses and pipe fishes that may be a concern though.

[angelscrx]

My fish get a work out when they feed.  With all the flow in the ocean I don't see the it stopping so fish can eat!  Plus the flow keeps the food suspended and flying around so fish can get to it.  My 2 cents.

[The Apprentice]

Hi Vicki I to don't shut anything off when i feed my fish, As for my leopard wrasses if the food isn't moving in the colum they wont attack it and eat it.
Some of my other fish prefer the food to suspend mainly cardinals,clowns, and my gobies. However I do see food go in my over flow so i know it is wasted. I do try to midigate this by purposely getting all My fish to feed from my hands or very close so I Midigate food loss
I think a Aquacontroller is pretty cool however i don't have one. Good luck with your decision...Jeff

[Rico]

I don't shut anything down for feeding either, in fact I purposely dispense the  food in water discharge nozzel so that all the fish have a chance to get some food.  I have several fish who are pigs and if given the chance they would eat all the food.  So I have to spread the food across the entire tank and do this by putting the food in the water current.

As for circut breakers, Ed and Les bring up a very critical point.  I intentionally put all my critical components on separate circuits and put redundant components on separate circuits.  For example, I separated the 4 MH ballasts and run 2 on one circut and 2 on a different circuit.  This ensures that if a circut goes down, I still have light.  I did the same for my water pumps.  The main recirc pump is on one circuit and the closed loop pump is on a different circut.  The goal is to ensure that if any one circuit goes down, the tank will still be able to survive.


Rick

[VickiG]

Wow - thanks everyone for the great input and advice!  I didn't realize a feed cycle wasn't even necessary. Probably won't use it now.  Thanks.

My concern would be the chiller.     The amperage draw of your return pump and chiller is  my question.   When you start them back up Your chiller will pull how many amps, and your return pump will pull how many amps?   If it were me I would want to run a seperate circuit for your chiller.   That way if your chiller trips a breaker your tank will be fine.  If you could time them both to go off at the same time so you could feed I think it would be awesome.    I hope this makes sense to you.   I want to always look towards Les for Chiller questions.  
I hope I am helping,
Ed [/quote

Ed, good point.  Even if we did use a feed cycle, the chiller won't be shut off for feeding, but would likely trip off when the sump water gets cool enough (the sensor is in the sump) and wouldn't probably come back on at the same time as the return pump - it would probably come back on after the return pump puts warmer water from the main tank back into the sump.  Darrel says they are on the same circuit, but he doesn't think they will trip it - we had 40 amp GFI outlets put in for the tank.  Darrel is going to buy an amp meter today so he can check the amp draw on everything before we finalize hooking up all the circuits controlled by the Aquacontroller.

Angel, Jeff, Les and Rico - excellent points about feeding with pumps on.  Ha ha ha, Angel I didn't even think about the fact that the ocean flow doesn't stop for the fish to eat!   :oops: Probably won't bother with the feed cycle now at all - so that solved that concern for us!  Jeff, this Aquacontroller is great - does everything but make our coffee in the morning (actually, we could probably program it to do that!)  And Les, we are not using even one X-10 for it, FYI, just 2 X 4 DC controllers and one 8 DC controller).  We have 16 devices on it.  

Again, great input from everyone!  We appreciate it...this is definitely one thing - sharing knowledge and experience - that really makes our club great!  We are learning so much from each of you.  Thanks everybody!    

[angelscrx]

Just a thought but tank with sumps have a about a two degree difference in temp from main display to sump.  I have my temp probe in the overflow of the display and the chiller return in the sump.  When I first set it up I had the temp probe in the sump and it read 80 but the display tank read 82 degrees so I moved the temp probe up and the chiller came on.  it dropped the sump temp to 78 and the display to 80 degrees.  Just something to keep in mind as everyone's tank is different.

[Rico]

Vicky,

With a 40 amp GFI breaker installed I see some items of concern.  Especially if you are running critical components or the majority of the tank on the circuit.

1) With a single 40 amp breaker, smaller draw devices such as dolphin pumps that draw .15 amps will very likely burn up or possibly start a fire before the 40 amp breaker trips.

2) If all your lights, chiller & pumps are on the same breaker, and it is more sensitive to short because it is GFI, and it trips while you are away.  What will happen to the tank?  I don't think you would be very happy when you returned.

3) It is ok to use the 40 amp breaker as a main and then install smaller sub breakers to protect the smaller equipment.  

4) When Darrell gets the amp meter home add up the total amp draw and  calculate the size of the breaker needed.  I beleive a breaker should only be loaded with 80% of it's intended capacity.  Les please step in and correct me if I am wrong.  So at 80% of a 40 amp breaker would give a max load of 32 amps. (if I am correct on the 80%).

My old 155 gal bowfront drew over 28 amps with a 1/3hp chiller, heater, 3 400 wt MH, VHO's, calcium reactor and 2 small circulation pumps.  I have not added up the total draw on this tank but I know I have 4ea 20 amp circuits running and still am drawing small stuff like the Sea Swirls and one set of VHO's off a 5th circuit.

Rick

[Ed]

Vicki,
    My oppinion is that it would be nice to shut my pumps off to feed for a short time.   My coast to coast skims water so effiently.   The problem is it cleans my surface so fast its hard to feed fish and my food often collects in my overflows.     That is why I have fed my fish from a fish net or used a cylinder like Rick has to get food down lower to fish.    That is one problem I have run into not shutting off my pump to feed.    My circulation or closed loop pump can run all the time or not.   But my return pump really pushes water over coast to coast.    I can shut my pump off and feed manually.   But if it were automatic and had not bumps it would be awesome. ....
good luck,
Ed

[Les]

Vicky,

With a 40 amp GFI breaker installed I see some items of concern.  Especially if you are running critical components or the majority of the tank on the circuit.

1) With a single 40 amp breaker, smaller draw devices such as dolphin pumps that draw .15 amps will very likely burn up or possibly start a fire before the 40 amp breaker trips.

2) If all your lights, chiller & pumps are on the same breaker, and it is more sensitive to short because it is GFI, and it trips while you are away.  What will happen to the tank?  I don't think you would be very happy when you returned.

3) It is ok to use the 40 amp breaker as a main and then install smaller sub breakers to protect the smaller equipment.  

4) When Darrell gets the amp meter home add up the total amp draw and  calculate the size of the breaker needed.  I beleive a breaker should only be loaded with 80% of it's intended capacity.  Les please step in and correct me if I am wrong.  So at 80% of a 40 amp breaker would give a max load of 32 amps. (if I am correct on the 80%).

My old 155 gal bowfront drew over 28 amps with a 1/3hp chiller, heater, 3 400 wt MH, VHO's, calcium reactor and 2 small circulation pumps.  I have not added up the total draw on this tank but I know I have 4ea 20 amp circuits running and still am drawing small stuff like the Sea Swirls and one set of VHO's off a 5th circuit.

Rick

I second everything Rick said other than the loading of the circuit breaker. By the NEC (National Electrical Code) you will only load a circuit to a maximum of 75% of the trip rating. (For branch circuits only) Along with those lines, most pumps/devices should be fused/breakered at 10 times the run currant. That will account for the inrush amperage at startup. All that being said, my pumps are on a hodge podge of circuits. I rely on the GFI receptacle for cutting out the separate pumps if there is a fault.  
One question I do have is where did you find a 40 GFI receptacle? I was only aware of 15/20 amps. Or do you mean the main that feeds the tank is a 40A GFI breaker? If this is the way it is then you may want to use separate GFI receptacles for the separate components so that if something faults then it won't bring the whole tank down with it.
Vicki, could you post or pm me a link on the controller you got? I would like to look at it.

[VickiG]

Thanks to everyone for advice and suggestions.  Ed, our closed loop will still be running during feeding - just the return pump will shut down so that the food doesn't get washed down into the coast to coast and through the sump and skimmer.  The CL has a pretty good flow so that would help keep the food suspended in the water column as well as make the fish work a bit more for their food.  We will have to experiment and see how the fish do and we can always adjust the feed cycle time or turn it off completely.

Les and Rico, I mis-spoke about the circuit.  I meant to say we installed two 20 amp breakers, not one 40 amp - guess I was thinking 40 amps total.  Obviously, I'm no electrician!   :oops:   I probably should have let Darrel explain the whole thing instead of trying to do so myself.  There are then three different junction boxes with the Aquacontroller, an 8 device and two X 4 heavy-duty device, plugged into the two 20-amp breakers.  Each of the junction boxes has a max of 15 amps and a fuse.  Obviously we can't max out the three 15-amps going into the two 20-amps, so, Darrel is spreading out all the pumps etc so the amperage is drawn evenly over these devices and circuits - I believe the highest one is 11.5 amps right now - something like that - he seems to know what he is doing even if I am not explaining it well!   Also, there is a third breaker, 15 or 20 amps I think, but that is shared with the microwave, so we will only plug a low-amp, non-critical device or two, like the Lunar arc (moonlights) into that one as it has its own timer and doesn't go through the Aquacontroller anyway.  So, despite what I may have so poorly explained before, everything is not on only one breaker.  I believe this is what Les and Rico are talking about here, so hopefully this lessens your concerns?     Darrel did buy an amp meter yesterday, so I imagine he will be testing all this stuff (i.e., playing with the tank) all day today.  He is also still working on the lights.  We ended up suspending the MH's X 3 from the ceiling on cable and he is going to build an aluminium frame track for the actinics so they can slide back out of the way inside the canopy.  That rack will also house the icecap fans, the lunar lights and a couple reptilian red LEDs as well that can be turned on as needed (I recall Terry B saying at the conference that we should add fish at night under red lights and also I think that I've read that is the best way to find parasitic isopods etc - under red lights, so they were cheap and I added a couple to the lighting plan.)  Then, we need to wire all the lights and test everything.  I will try to take some pictures and post an update.  We will probably order some live rock before too long.  Darrel says we'll definitely have the tank up and running (with actual fish) by NEXT Christmas!  I should hope so, since this was my Christmas present for last year (and probably many years to come - $$$ !!!!!   :shock: ).  

Les, we got the controller from Neptune Systems.  http://www.neptunesys.com/   We got the Aquacontroller III, but they have several models.  Ours will control up to 20 devices but the AC III Pro will control 30 and has additional probes that we didn't get.  You can compare the various models at:  http://www.neptunesys.com/comparison.htm

Anyway, I want to thank everyone again for their input - we welcome all suggestions and advice.   And, Happy New Year to everyone as well!

[angelscrx]

Wow pretty sweet controllers.  Thanks for sharing.